Sunday, January 04, 2009

A Plaid Cymru Councillor in the family

At the New Year’s family meal I posted upon yesterday I had a long chat with my niece Holly’s step-dad, Greg Robbins, who was elected as a Plaid Cymru Councillor for Llandudno District Town Council last May.

Greg is enjoying being a Councillor and is active in the Plaid Cymru Party. I must admit that I was surprised that Greg hasn’t experienced any “problems” being a card carrying Welsh nationalist. Greg looks “Welsh” and speaks with a North Walian lilt but he was born in England and his mother is English. His Dad did have family in North Wales but Glen admits he is only “technically” half-Welsh.

Interestingly, Greg also does not speak Welsh either. In the best traditions of British (and Welsh) local government when he was elected councillor he was appointed as a governor of the only Welsh speaking school in Llandudno. When he attends school governor meetings he therefore has to rely on the interpreter who also translates for the 4 or 5 parent governors who are also non-Welsh speakers.

Greg said he has never experienced any difficulties in the Party over his background and lack of Welsh. I am astonished by this since in the past I have come across “some” (not all by any means) Plaid Cymru activists who frankly put the BNP to shame for their views of the English (and anyone else they deem to be non-Welsh and therefore “sub-human”). Nowadays such views are now seen as being clearly racist. When I lived in Scotland, “some” Scot Nats were just as bad.

Greg said that Plaid had changed and there was a new face to the Party that welcomed English migrants who believe in self determination for Wales regardless of their origin or the fact that they speak Welsh or not. He reminded me that there is a Bengali Plaid Cymru deputy mayor of Colwyn Bay!

I have now lived longer in Newham than Wales so I really don’t know what Welsh nationalist sentiment is nowadays. I hope Greg is right. I do have my doubts. While I think independence for Wales would be a disaster (not only for Wales but also the rest of us) I hope my fears are wrong.

Picture is from the Llandudno Plaid Cymru website attacking the expansion of local offshore wind farms. Which I think are a good idea!

18 comments:

Charlie Marks said...

Plaid share power with Labour in Wales, let's not forget, so their nationalism is strongly civic these days. And they are a socialist party (not a plus for you, I know!)

Why would Welsh independence be a disaster for the rest of us? Why would it be a disaster for Wales?

lewsyn said...

The only racist opinion being expressed here (albeit unintentionally) is yours in saying that Greg "looks Welsh".
Does Mohammed Ashgar, the Plaid AM, "look Welsh"?
He does to me.

Plaid is not the party of common misconception in England - it's the party challenging New Labour ideology from the left and forging alliances with both trade unions (e.g. FBU, RMT and PCS) as well as the more progressive elements in Welsh Labour.

John Gray said...

Hi Charlie
Yes, they are partners with Labour so I can’t be that rude! Depends of course how you define “Socialist”? Actually I don’t believe it. While not doubting the sincerity of individual members who are genuinely socialist I believe that the rise of nationalism in Wales and Scotland has been largely at the expense of the Conservatives (or “wipe out” to be more exact). Remember the Tories use to be the largest single Party in Scotland in 1950’s.

I think that Welsh (or Scottish independence) would be a disaster because we all live on a very small Island which is absolutely and completely dominated geographically, economically and politically by…England. As members of a union I think that in reality Wales and Scotland exercise more influence over England than if we were separate. It is also interesting what would have happened to the Scottish economy and financial services industry in the current crisis if it had been isolated from the UK economy. I think that England also benefits from the Union and the sum is greater than the parts -its win, win for all.

John Gray said...

Hi Lewsyn
I can see your point, but I think its getting a little silly to suggest someone is being racist if they say someone “looks welsh” or looks Italian, Chinese or Asian etc. I’ve got fair hair (or rather had) and blue eyes and “look English” even though I’m not.

As in my reply to Charlie I don’t buy this “red nationalism”. I do not doubt your personal commitment but I do believe that Plaid and the SNP do get significant support from conservative minded supporters which will eventually undermine their more “progressive” politics in Wales and Scotland. There is still in my view no alternative to the Labour Party – warts and all.

Charlie Marks said...

The SNP isn't socialist (though it has one socialist MSP in Bill Wilson) yet it's success in recent years hasn't been to position itself as the Tartan Tories, supporting the New Labour policies of privatisation, marketisation, etc. The SNP's recent losses in by-elections have been because Labour voters are sticking with, or switching back to, Labour.

In Wales, Plaid's not noticeably shifted right and seems to have worked well with Labour in Wales, alas Labour MPs don't seem too keen on this relationship as they oppose Welsh Labour & Plaid's agreement to hold a referendum on the Assembly getting Holyrood-style legislative powers.

If you don't think independence is good, then you'd have to concede that devolution has benefited Scotland and Wales, and would also benefit England. If the Union is to survive it must shift to a federal republic. You must know, however that the ability of independent states to govern themselves does not prevent economic cooperation - indeed, the UK has a significant trading relationship with Ireland. Perhaps you would welcome Ireland being absorbed into the UK on the grounds that England is too big?

John Gray said...

Hi Charlie
I think its success in recent years is due to a one man band. I still can’t believe that it is just co-incidental that as the Tories diminished the SNP grew.

I think that there is still a question mark over the “success” of devolution. I sometimes think that North Wales would have benefited from its own regional assembly rather than a national one based in Cardiff. A federal system of regions may be interesting idea?

Ireland is of course an Island (and a divided one at that) and not part of the British mainland. Mind you, I think that Ireland benefits (perversely) from an England absorbed in a mainland Union. The British state may be remembered most in Ireland post 1801, but Ireland’s independence real enemy was an aggressive imperialistic English state.

What’s to stop history repeating itself?

What your view about the EU with regard to this again?

Charlie Marks said...

With regards Alex Salmond - I doubt the one man band has much to do with it... Can you not see how off-putting Labour's adoption of Tory policies are to Labour voters? The SNP positioned themselves as being for peace and social justice in contrast to "New" Labour.

On Ireland & the British Empire - Recall that it was not the ordinary people of England that set out build an empire & England was never a democratic state.

The poll tax damaged the Tories in Scotland. If you recall, it was introduced a year earlier there. (And note that the Additional Member System has helped the nationalist parties in Scotland and Wales)

I don't have a view on the EU with regard to this. I'm not sure the EU has an opinion on Scottish or Welsh devolution/independence.

Independence isn't an issue in England, but devolution is, because of the so-called West Lothian Question. There were referenda in Scotland and Wales on devolution. This hasn't happened in England, making devolution an uneven process. It's not too late to change, however.

John Gray said...

Hi Charlie
Not that I agree with the "Tory policies" bit but the voters have been pretty happy with Labour during the past 3 elections? We have never had such sustained support. So apart from by-elections where has the SNP support come from? The slide in the Tory party was long before the poll tax (obviously it didn’t help).

Even democratic states act daftly at times over nationalistic issues?

I am a reluctant convert to the benefits of the EU. I think that it also undermines the case for independence. I have always thought it is a rather rubbish argument to claim “Independence within Europe”.

Sorry Charlie but devolution isn’t an issue in England. I am a fan of regional assemblies but the English don’t seem bothered at all. Maybe Prescott (my fellow North Walian) could have done things differently but I doubt it. The English I think know instinctively that the Union makes sense no matter how illogical it may appear.

Charlie Marks said...

You don't think that New Labour has Tory policies or you don't think they're off-putting to Labour voters?

New Labour has kept the legal restrictions on workers introduced by Thatcher, kept and extended tax breaks for big business, and continued with the disastrous policy of privatisation instead of bringing those assets flogged off to foreign companies back under public ownership. Not even a windfall tax on the greedy energy monopolies to help those suffering from extortionate bills!

Winning 3 elections on declining turnout, losing 1/2 of the members & millions of traditional voters - all worrying trends, surely? It's getting harder to motivate traditional supporters to turn out on the basis that we've to stop the Tories getting back in. In some respects, it's as if they've never left. Witness Labour MPs - Labour MPS! - voting to criminalise industrial action by prison officers.

At the next election, those swing Tory voters gained in the last three general elections will turn to Cameron and his cronies. To make up for this - and hopefully stop it - there has to be a progressive coalition with progressive policies established.

"I am a reluctant convert to the benefits of the EU" - makes me wonder, why reluctance and what benefits?

Devolution isn't an issue in England, you say. And it's true the issue isn't "problematised" or at the top of the list of people's priorities. But there's a growing awareness of anomalies like MPs from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland voting on health and education policy that only concerns England.

John Gray said...

Hi Charlie
Both! Labour has removed many of the legal restrictions on Trade unions, but I agree not enough.

But I do not think that this particular issue means that Labour loses support? Neither is “Tax breaks for big business” – what does this mean?

The issue should be about fairness in corporate taxation! Yes, there has been further mistaken privatisation but frankly when you measure it, very, very little. I would love to have a windfall tax on greedy utility firms but every time we have a likely suspect the price drops. There must be a way around this.

The danger in the next election is that that the Tories will claim to be the moderate and centre party. Full stop. We need to argue that they are not.

The EU is getting better and is not the bureaucratic nightmare that it use to be. We owe a lot to the EU for the introduction of decent employment, health & safety and pension legislation.

I don’t think that the overwhelming majority of English people give a damn about devolution. Right or wrong.

Charlie Marks said...

Corporation tax has been cut, not raised. No doubling of the rate for big businesses, but for the poorest workers we endured the 10p tax crisis...

Windfall tax? And what was the response to that from the Cabinet? Silence. A way round the problem? Public ownership, democratic control.

The Tories can claim all they like, what difference should this make to Labour's policies? None. Do you expect Cameron to reverse ferret for fear of being branded a cutter? No. Let's face it, on the economy they look clueless...

We can't rely on the EU to deliver the goods - look at the opt-outs on workers' rights that the government has secured! I'll say this on the EU - we need a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. If Ireland can have two, we can have one!

John Gray said...

Why won’t the EU deliver the goods but UK regional assemblies or federal states will? If England did become independent then there is a very good chance that it will be dominated by the Tories? You could get a left wing pro worker EU (which is what I think we “tend” to have at the moment) fighting a more right wing English government (whoops – totally unlike the present arrangements of course). This opposition doesn’t seem logical...or am I missing something?

Charlie Marks said...

The EU is in the process of becoming a multinational state. I favour co-operation, not integration. I don't think this would be a good thing for us - it's better to win the argument on workers' rights in this country than rely upon Europe.

I think it's important that the future of the EU, the Union, etc. be decided by voters via referenda.

John Gray said...

Hi Charlie
Sorry this is late but I am catching up on things – I think we are close to agreement!

Anonymous said...

Re Privatisation: Although Thatcher and Major created marketisation in the NHS, by 1997 the entire private market was worth £200m. In 2007, contracts for patient care with private hospitals, treatment centres and diagnostic services amounted to over £2 billion and that doesn't include the massive sums involved in PFI and the continuing contracts for ancillary services.As a Unison Health branch secretary to see you say that there is very little privatisation astonishes me. Look at the recent figures for PCTs - 25% of the provider services are going to private firms. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. This Government is intent on NHS privatisation and it is a disgrace.

John Gray said...

Hi Paul
Sorry about the delay in responding. Been a bit busy and that. I had a chat about your comments to a London Health branch secretary and he thought that your comments were pretty” rubbish” to be honest.

You haven’t actually referenced things so I am guessing somewhat about what you are referring to? But I think it is fair to say that by and large the core services in the NHS have not been privatised and that there is no plan to do so in the future.

Overall he agrees that there has been relatively little further privatisation of members. He pointed out that there has always been a significant privatised sector in the NHS since its conception. “Agenda for change” has seen services” being brought back in house.

What is important is if you think what would have happened if the Tories pre 1997 had remained in power and if they took power in the next general election. It’s called US health insurance (2)?

The government is not intent on further significant privatisation and simply sniping from the “forgotten brigades” will not change things either.

Anonymous said...

Hi Uncle John, me Kira here just wanted to say that I have just found your blog on the internet and I have told dad about it. He and mum are bothed shocked about this and mum and I have read it. Dad is busy doing councillor stuff at the moment. Love you... Kirax

Go Plaid Cymru!!!!!

John Gray said...

Hi Kira

I thought that your Dad was my number one blogging fan!!!I did tell him I would post on this and on Mike's brother.

How is your beautiful new Niece (and our Grand-niece)!

Probably best to email me a reply.

ps - tell your Dad not to work too hard

Go Forth for Labour!