Saturday, March 31, 2012

Why we all hate George Galloway (unless you do community politics)

It just goes to show that you just can't keep a bad man down! Poor old Bradford West. They will soon learn - as did the people of Tower Hamlets. First posted here November 2007. Hat-tip Col Roi.


Anonymous said...

GG is my guilty pleasure! he hates trots ! Labour slung him out for objecting to a pointless war, he was better in the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in ! and he made the yanks look the chumps they are!

joe butler said...

interesting you really concentrate on the issues John.

Presumably you support the war in Afghanistan just like Ed Milliband

John Gray said...

Hi anon

Okay he is not totally wrong all the time just 99% of the time. My main objection to Galloway is that he never builds anything he just destroys.

His style of “leftist” bombastic and loud mouth cronyism sets back the cause of progressive politics. It does not forward it at all. It is all about George and want he wants for George and he really doesn't give a damn about anything else.

Hi Joe

This is a light hearted video (with a message) from 2007. There is a serious issue that Big Brother did expose GG as a really nasty, bullying piece of work. which this video clearly shows I think.

Of course I do and I also support the withdrawal of combat troops in 2014.

joe butler said...

Hi John

I'm wondering what part of "progressive poliitics" the war encompasses?

John Gray said...

Is any war progressive? Is any war justified?

For my part getting rid of a lunatic government of brain washed morons that openly encouraged worldwide terrorist attacks such as 9/11, closed all schools and universities to girls and women, refused them right to work, carried public executions and floggings was indeed progressive.

Not everything that was done was right but it is easy for all of us safe at home to become armchair strategists.

Afghanistan has a reasonable chance now of becoming a functioning state. Not the sort of democracy that most people in the UK would recognise but much better than life under the Taliban.

Or it won’t and probably Afghanistan will break up and divide into independent states based on tribal and ethic loyalties. Which arguable is the main reason for the fighting and instability.

joe butler said...

If you don't want to be an armchair strategist, and if you feel so strongly that Afghan women need liberating you could always join up
instead of sending more young men to pointless deaths by proxy, (ahh but only for another 2 years, time for you to get a battlefield commission John).

"government of brain washed morons", thats a very "progressive" phrase John ....let me quote from wikipedia

From 1996 to 2001 the al-Qaeda terrorist network of Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri became a state within Afghanistan.[131] Bin Laden sent Arab recruits to join the fight against the United Front.[131][132] 3,000 fighters of the regular Taliban army were Arab and Central Asian militants.[127] In total, of roughly 45,000 Pakistani, Taliban and al-Qaeda soldiers fighting against the forces of Massoud in mid-2001, only 14,000 were Afghans.[119][127]

Afghanistan like many other poor states before has just become a convenient theatre for the west to play out it's paranoia.

Enjoy your cosy alliance on this issue with the Tories John.Wrap yourself even tighter in the flag and you may even get a knighthood.

John Gray said...

Hi Joe

I thought you would eventually descent into abuse. People like you are a bit sensitive about the "brain washed moron tag" I suppose.

Have you ever put yourself at risk for your views or just jeered at those who do?

Since you have descended into the gutter I can only ask whether you would want your Mum, Sister (if any have the joy), female relations and friends to live under Taliban rule? Of course keyboard warriors such as yourself will do all you can to defend your Afghan sisters. Maybe you joined a demo outside the Afghan embassy during the Taliban rule and chanted for a bit?

That showed ‘em didn’t it!

You appear to hide your true identity but I suspect middle class tosser syndrome? Profound and totally sincere apologies if I am wrong of course!

When I was younger I did indeed "join up" of sorts but thankfully for me (and for the reputation of the British Army) in those days I faced nothing more dangerous than being woken up at 5am in a rain sodden trench in Dartmoor with thunder flashes and someone shouting “you’re dead yer C##t”.

You would of course probably agree with certain aspects of the above analysis.

joe butler said...

Abuse? What abuse?
Come on comrade. If I abused you, you have certainly returned the compliment.

Ok let us return to the issue. the point about my sister (and I have 4) is precisely the argument used in 1914 to herd young men into the trenches.

British soldiers are not in Afghanistan to liberate Afghan women. They are there at the behest of the Americans , to give the whole thing a international legitimacy. The Americans are there not to liberate Afghan women but because Afghanistan is a key focal point in a region which has oil. All oil as we know must belong to the west and it's insatiable thirst. Afghan women will be liberated by their own efforts, not by Anglo American bullets.

Your comments about my identity are well off the mark, all the middle class tossers I know are Labour MP's. Professional politicians who have never had a real job. I drove buses in Birmingham for 20 years, was a TGWU shop steward for 10. I was at Saltley gate in 1972 supporting the miners, till I got completely disenchanted with the labour movement and it's inability to change anything, Kinnock sitting on his hands whilst the miners were isolated by the Labour establishment. Add to that 12 years of Blair/Brown market economics and I stopped voting.

My name is Joe Butler and I am Spartacus

John Gray said...

Come on Spartacus

What is wrong with you people? dish it out but become complete and utter cry babies when you get anything back?

Do you really understand what you say?

Anyway, I will take on face value that you are what you say (frankly I think you are lying but I may be wrong) but I don't know since you are too cowardly to show your identity or apologise for your abuse.

You don't even know you are being abusive do you? you lot are so full of yourself it is incredible! Unless you prove otherwise you are just the typical Middle class wind bag that nobody really gives a damn what you think and nobody really cares.

Anonymous said...

Hey Joe,

I am Spartacus?!?! Help, somebody pass me the sick bag. Where do you Ultras get off? Comparing yourself to a slave General who fought and was crucified in his fight against oppression. Whereas poor old you are disenchanted with the Labour movement which never changes anything?

I put down a lot of my life chances to the Labour movement you sneer at. I grew up in a Council House and my dad was a manual worker. I got a degree at a Poly (created by Harold Wilson's Labour Government) and consider I would not have had the education I did have without the Labour Government. I have also had cause to use our NHS which can make every British person stand tall in the world. Back then one third of the population lived in council houses and ours was a great house and a lot better than my family lived in previously. Also the local library provided by the Labour Council was a big boon.

And some of us are still fighting for these things 'Spartacus.'

I personally don't care much if you are middle class or working class; every class has dilettante bores in it.

The world we live in, in this country, falls short of where we want to be but you won't be shot in the chest for demonstrating, like you would in a middle eastern dictatorship. Ask GG what he thinks of middle eastern dictatorships.

And as for western paranoia over Afghanistan. Would that be the Afghanistan that harboured Al Qaeda training camps and would that be the Al Qaeda who attacked the twin towers and the Pentagon? Interesting definition of paranoia. Paranoia is not the perception of an actually existing threat.

Of course all this makes me a CIA stooge because nobody does paranoia like the far left.

In my view the west went into Afghanistan for reasons of their own security. Perfectly understandable reasons. And reasons which I support. And I, like John want our troops out ASAP. It also had the handy outcome of toppling a vile Taliban regime and the points John makes are well made.

I remember sitting in a pub in Leeds being told by one crazy that the Yanks did it to themselves when the twin towers came down and then of course there was the 'it was the Jews.’ Ultra lefts really are such a sweet bunch of people.

John is right. He's a Labour councillor and a trade union activist, as well as blogging. He is out there in the real world, not the virtual world noddy land that you are into. Everyone who tries to achieve the achievable sets themselves up to be attacked by no marks who are more interested in their own sect or their own egos or both.

Dave Draycott

PS: there is no oil in Afghanistan,
so what makes it a key focal point Joe.

John Gray said...

Hi Dave

Well said comrade!

By a bizzare coincidence "Deathy" (Bill) from SPGB emailed my yesterday to say they have published our debate online last year online here

joe butler said...

Hi John and Dave

I dont know if this qualifies as a debate or a slanging match. But I am willing to debate further, are you?

John the personal details I published are all true, though I will concede that I am not Spartacus, that was a ironic reference to the film and was made when John challenged my identity, apologies that you didn't get the allusion Dave. Whether I am middle class or not is irrelevant, I always believed that the radical middle class and radical ruling class has a part to play in change. whether I a dillettante bore is a matter of opinion, I wont bore you by dallying with it.

OK back to the issue of when to pull out British troops. Dave, John didnt say ASAP, he said by 2014. Billy Bragg, possibly a dilletante bore also, said recently on radio " pull out in a month's time".

How many british troops have to die in the next two years? France suspended it's operations in January this year after 4 of it's troops were killed and they have lost 82 troops in the last decade in Afganistan Britain lost 82 troops in 2011. It seems to me that our higher troop loss is not a coincidence. Britain has been in the most dangerous provinces. I would argue this is due to our closer links with the US, our bloodier imperial past, and the fact that public opinion in Britain has been desensitised to these losses by Britains continuous involvement in wars.

I ,of course want, the return of Labour Government , but we have to ask the question what kind of government will it be? Blairism in economics and foreign policy has to be booted out. I am not member of any political party. I was a labour party member 20 years ago. Then I realised it was just a machine for getting the vote out, it stiffled debate and changed very little. I would rejoin the Labour Party if it got rid of people like my MP Liam Byrne who, surprise surprise wants to be Birmingham's first elected Mayor, O sorry I forgot to mention his and my Hodge Hill constituency is about to disappear and he will be out of a job.

Debate is a key part in change. Decide what you want to achieve before organising and being active. Labour dosn't know what it really wants.

Finally, yes Dave I did realise Afghanistan has no oil but it's neighbour Iran has plenty. This war could be just a training ground for the next one.

John Gray said...

Hi Joe

I'm always will to take part in a debate but please spare me the piety about the slanging match. You overstepped the mark so don't complain if you receive stuff back in kind.

Dave can speak for himself (as you no doubt found) but for me 2014 is probably ASAP. The "West" made a conscious decision to invade Afghanistan and topple the Government (rightly or wrongly - I think rightly) so they have a responsibility to try and ensure that they leave behind some sort of functional state. But they cannot be there forever and it’s time to pull out in a planned and orderly manner. That will benefit everyone. Then it is up to the Afghans to sort themselves out.

The US has taken the brunt of casualties but I think the Danes actually lost more troops in proportion to their involvement? I've not seen Denmark as particularly close US ally engaged in "continuous wars"?

The Labour Party is not perfect but one of its strengths is that it is a broad church. There are a number of active members within that I don't agree with but that is how it should be. We agree more than we differ. There are some useless MP's and some dangerous and destructive advisors that frankly I would not prefer to be in such positions but that is up to members to sort out.

The Labour Party has, does and can deliver for working people. There is no choice whatsoever but the Labour Party if you believe in democratic progressive politics (whether you call yourself socialist, reformists or social democratic). If you don't subscribe to these beliefs then fair enough go off and form your own party and do the hard stuff of knocking on doors and speaking to people about your beliefs and getting them to support you. On-line debate is no substitute for the bloody hard work many Labour activists will be putting in up and down the country during the next few weeks.

Finally, do you really, really, really believe that the West invaded Afghanistan and stayed there since purely to practice or launch an invasion of Iran?

joe butler said...

Hi John
No complaints what ever. I can throw an take a personal insult and being called a lier with the best of them, glad to see our exchange has taken a less heated tone.

I wouldn't argue that the west went into Afghanistan with the intention of invading Iran. But military and poiitical strategists may well think they have the trained troops out there why bring them home.

Douglas McCarthur remember wanted to carry on after 1945.
We'll see if Obama dosn't get back in .

A nice piece in the Times this morning says comrades in the Unite union want to "get rid of the right wing neo liberals who have infested the the party for the last two decades". There is always time for you to join the Lib Dems John, Oh sorry I forgot you are only in bed with the right wing neo liberals.

John Gray said...

Hi Joe

I see you want to go back to a slanging match which is a shame but no surprise.

I think you have changed your argument over Iran?

I also think you mean Patton not MacArthur? Not sure what that proves? There were generals on both sides who wanted to carry on.

You need to be careful when you personalise things about people you don't know. I would have thought you would have learnt when you made the macho dig about me joining up. "Like" you I did leave the Labour Party. I was indeed "in bed" with the Lib Dems (not literally of course) before I saw the light and came home to Labour. I am convinced that there is no alternative to Labour. But as I have said previously good luck to you with yours.

I don't read the Murdock’s Times (nor pay to view) so I'll take your word for it. I understand that this refers to a motion to the Unite conference which I've not seen but essentially wants to rebalance the Labour Party to the left. Which I would support. I have actually written a similar motion which is going to our National Labour Link forum.

It's probably just a little bit more diplomatic than Unites.