Monday, October 06, 2008

“World Capitalism in Crisis!”

" So lets hold a debate about something else"

Resolutions not Revolution?

Hat-tip thingy to Comrade Mercader

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

sign the petition against the witch hunt in the SWP no new leadership coronation

lets the members vote

Anonymous said...

If its AWL it wont be funded by PFI money unlike SWP meeting

big business were backing the Tories and Trots

Anonymous said...

Where's the SWP petition available? I want to sign it!

Anonymous said...

CPGB and AWL are not in a posistion to start a revolution, or mass debates on the crisis.

Possible upscaling of the middle east bloodbath is important, part of capitalism.

Labour party has hands caked in blood and a head full of class collaborationism and hack careerist leaders. Kettle. Pot. Black.

Anonymous said...

Sunday 12 October: Israel, Iran and the left: a public debate between
Sean Matgamna and Moshe Machover. 5:15pm
Lucas Arms, 245a Grays Inn Road, Kings Cross
A joint Workers' Liberty-Campaign for a Marxist Party event.

John Gray said...

Hi Michael
You are right that the CPGB and AWL are not in a position to do anything except hold small “meetings” in pubs. The poster was I think (as the author feared) perhaps “too subtle”.

Yes, the issues in the Middle East are important but will having an “interesting debate” with other political nonentities actually achieve anything?

Surely, what is going on in the capitalist system at the mo is more interesting than such pointless, very soon to be forgotten, exchanges of hot air? But that is up to you guys I suppose. You can of course always have a well earned beer or two afterwards!

It’s perfectly legitimate to criticise and attack the Labour Party, the Government and its leaders. Personally, I come from a traditional North Wales working class “knock about” political tradition, so name calling doesn’t bother me.

But what I find so fascinating nowadays is that you either have no concept or don’t care how demented such comments as “hands caked in blood” or “class collaborationism”, “hack careerist” makes you seem? To me at least, it puts you in the same league as those nice clean cut kids from Utah who knock on my front door, from time to time, in between trying to baptise the dead?

But, perhaps you’re right and I’m wrong? Now, that is not unknown but I’m not holding my breath mind. After all, perhaps the kids from Utah are right and we’re both wrong. We’re both end up in hell if that’s the case – but you seem to think you live in hell already – so perhaps it won’t be as bad for you. While I better mug up about Joseph Smith jr.

Just in case.

Anonymous said...

"Surely, what is going on in the capitalist system at the mo is more interesting than such pointless, very soon to be forgotten, exchanges of hot air? But that is up to you guys I suppose. You can of course always have a well earned beer or two afterwards! "

CPGB and AWl have both provided detailed coverage of the crisis in recent editions of their papers - I enjoyed Mike Macnairs 'From boom to war?' the most, who has also written a lovely book on marxist strategy with a section on reformism that im sure you would love to read.

The world economic crisis itself - yes this is important, ismply by virtue of its size. However, lets face it, the labour party, all wings of, have nothing fundamental to say about it that goes beyond the usual. Most of the centre and centre left has,in addition, gone over to the 'greedy bankers' line of propaganda, which is useless and tells us nothing, moral outrage is essentially harmless as is happening now.

"But what I find so fascinating nowadays is that you either have no concept or don’t care how demented such comments as “hands caked in blood” or “class collaborationism”, “hack careerist” makes you seem? To me at least, it puts you in the same league as those nice clean cut kids from Utah who knock on my front door, from time to time, in between trying to baptise the dead?"

On 'demented comments', au contraire all are true, thus to the 'loyalist' they must appear demented in proportion to their truth content. On 'hands caked in blood' - see Iraq, hopefully I dont have to elaborate on this.
On 'class collaboration' this is again true and is openly accepted by many famous social-demcrats as the basis of their politics be it 'class peace', 'charity', 'gradualism', 'the end of the class war', and so on. Managing the capitalist state on the world market necessarily entails protecting a national capital interest and forcing econmic dislocation onto weaker states and keeping the working class at home in check in order to remain 'competitive'. Is this really all crazy lies on my part?
On 'hack careerist leaders' again this is just true, how many ex labour ministers now sit on the boards of companies with an eye on a privatisation, or sit in the lords dressed in their socialist lords robes!

On the analagies with cults - part of why my inital response was so curt was this tone I detected in your piece, and that you have here brought to life in straight words - (and you accuse me of name calling!) the reason this is so sulphorous and contemptable is that it avoids all serious questions, all serious debate abour politics - after all who cares what the lunatics think? This represents merley a re-affirmation of your own faith, hilariously and perversely taking the form of accusing others of the sin we find only in yourself! (to continue the theme).

John Gray said...

Hi Michael

Sorry, I think that ultra left political sects have more in common with cults than real political parties. Actually I think that a fairer comparison with your arguments would be with Scientology rather than Mormon’s. I walked past their Headquarters in Tottenham Court Road a few months ago and they had tables on the pavement offering free E-meter “stress tests”. During the tests they pass small amount of electric currents thorough your body! Sounds as exciting as selling newspapers outside Tesco’s.

You both use pseudo-scientific dialectic mumbo-jumbo to “prove” your armchair politics. Are your comments really supposed to persuade anyone of the righteousness of your cause? Who are you trying to reach? Why are so many middle class people attracted by such twaddle? Is it guilt? Or do they think that bossing others is their divine right?

Now there are loads of very left wing people who I don’t agree with but can respect politically. But I find sects completely off the wall. It’s also a bit like meeting really nice people who you eventually find have strange views on abortion, gay rights, capital punishment etc.

My main point which you didn’t address is that we both seem to inhabit parallel universes. I must admit it is obviously really horrible for you to live in this society. I genuinely want to change this society for the better but frankly I don’t really recognise your universe and I am thankful I do not live in it.