Friday, January 08, 2010

My David Cameron - Tax Breaks for the richest 3,000 estates?

Tax Breaks
Hat tip Go 4th and My David Cameron

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

Lets hope no one judges the so called party of economic competence on its record. You can attack Cameron all you like - but i would be a bit more worried about your own record in Government.

John Gray said...

Hi Tory Anon
How can you say this about the brill Labour government that saved the World from a depression which your Tory mates want to bring about because that is what their “dummies guide to neo-lib economics” tells them ? Tut, tut...

Anonymous said...

30% in the polls is equal to the number of people employed in local Government - Labour just buys its votes and it resorts to attacking Cameron for no other reason than its own record and policies do bear up to scrutiny. You are on you way out mate!

John Gray said...

Hi anon
30%? 30% in LG? What? There are 43million on the register - so nearly 13 million work in LG? Yeah.

Learn to add up matey!

I think you would have benefited from having a Labour government supplied state teaching assistant helping you out with your maths in your reception years.

Anonymous said...

all the posters round my way have new slogans on

about Tory Cuts
and Tax cuts for the rich
or Tory toffs

EXCELLENT

Anonymous said...

I hear that apart from a Tory pay freeze on teachers pay

they will ask parents which teaching assistants they want to sack

Anonymous said...

all the posters round my way have new slogans on

about Tory Cuts
and Tax cuts for the rich
or Tory toffs

EXCELLENT

Think you are making that one up darling John, you're party admitted in The Times three days ago it doesnt have the cash to do such posters.

A little honesty, rather than bitterness goes along way love

John Gray said...

Hi Honey Anon 00.26
I think if you read anon 23.37 properly he or she was referring to all the Cameron posters that have been vandalised by very naughty people writing rude things on them.

BTW The standard of Tory Anons on this post is remarkable poor! They can't count and they now can't read!

They must have been educated pre-1997?

Anonymous said...

What is actually laughable is that everyone knows that the cuts are coming whichever party gets in - Darling admitted this and the IMF and all economic commentators agree. Who was on watch when we got into this economic difficulty? Brown and Labour. You also notice absolutely no attempt to stand on their record in Government. The attacks on cameron and the attempts to personify this as nasty cuts vs enlighted Labour is so simplistic it is an insult to the electorate. I don't really care who is in power as long as they are competent - and its manifestly obvious to any but the most bovine that the current incumbents are out of ideas and responsible for the most appalling economic mis-management. Thye have little to be proud of and we wil all be paying the price of their legacy for years to come. I'm sure the response to this comment will simply be the normal one a) its actually all someone elses fault and not Labours and b) its better than the Tories which considerring they were last in power when I was five years old is stretching it somewhat.

John Gray said...

Hi forever angry anon
I think that all parties have indeed said there will be “cuts”. The key question is when, how and to whom. There is clear red water on this issue between Labour and Tories and that is what the fuss is about.

The Tories are dominated by free market neo-liberals such as Cameron. Who genuinely believe that the answer to the economic recession is significant and deep rooted cuts in public spending. They want a much smaller state. This is what they believe in and yes, this is what they did the last time they were in power. Which in a democracy it is fine and dandy for them to hold such views.

However, their beliefs are IMO wrong. Dangerously wrong. If we have such cuts amidst a recession then it could turn the recession into a depression.

The government has not mismanaged the economy during the crisis. They were far too naive about the Banks and financial institutions beforehand (as was the rest of the world) and I hope they have learnt their lesson. The blame for the financial crisis lies solely on the private sector bankers and speculators who almost brought us to our knees by their incompetence, greed and criminality. It is their legacy.

There is also clear red water on what should be “cut”. I won’t agree with all Labour proposals but I don’t want multi-millionaires to benefit from inheritance tax cuts.

I support truly progressive rates of tax on the rich (maybe even until the pips squeak?)and the ending of unfair middle class perks to be cut.

Not cuts to front line services or the poor, the elderly or the vulnerable.

Anonymous said...

What about unfair working class tax breaks, family tax credits free everything, cheap houing etc etc.
It's veryy inventoive of you to keep thinking up more ways of spending everyone elses money.
Part of the problem moving forward now is that in order to pay for this and increasing large proportion of the population fall into the highest rates of taxes. Doctors, firemen, nursing sisters, all in the 40% tax bracket.
Many of my colleagues who are working overtime are now getting the 40% rate. Head teachers, heads of department - are they rich? who was uit that abolished the lowest rate of tax and stopped student grants? That wouild be Labour.

Mike Law said...

John,

How do you explain the difference in views on economic policy within the Labour Party (Brown & Balls Vs Mandelson & Darling)?

Furthermore, what is your take on Mandelson's speech to the Work Foundation on Wednesday in which he said:

"The 1980s saw the timely privatization of industries that were long overdue for return to the commercial sector. Industrial relations underwent a sea change. The quality of management in our best firms improved, and with it, corporate profitability.

First and foremost we need to foster a new climate for enterprise in Britain. There is no substitute for this – no substitute for the drive and ambition that it brings … it is the single most important engine of economic progress. The recovery cannot be driven by consumer debt or public spending. It will be driven by private sector investment and private enterprise.

Enterprise and reward go hand in hand. Much as it shocked many of my friends when I said I was comfortable with people making themselves “filthy rich”, in the context I was speaking I was simply stating a simple truth: that enterprise and effort should be rewarded. It sets goals to spur people and brings gains to us all … there is never a case for punitive taxation. There is never a case for rates of tax that remove the incentive to self-improvement or to build a business."
?

Anonymous said...

AIR BRUSH
JUST LIKE HIS POLICIES

Anonymous said...

Great comment Mike! labour spin and hypocrisy.

John Gray said...

Hi Anon
Tax breaks for the working classes? Free everything...? Don’t you realise there is a world outside Daily Mail LaLa Land? Can’t you think for yourself? Don’t you care about people less fortunate than you?

To pay higher rate tax you have to be earning over £44, ooo per year. Near a £1000 per week. If you are on national minimum wage (and 22 or older) you will only get £12, 064 per year. Some head teachers and GP’s are now earning over £100k per year! Damn right they should all pay higher rate tax.

Hi Mike
Peter M and I come from different wings of the Labour Party and we would disagree on many things. But to be clear I believe in a traditional “Mixed Economy” - in a strong public and a strong private sector. I suspect that PM would “agree” with this statement.

I don’t believe in “punitive” taxation but I believe that people should pay out more for a fair and better society according to their means. PM and I would argue probably to the death what is “punitive” or not.

Quite right too.

Mike Law said...

You still haven't explained why there is such a disparity in economic philosophy among the Labour grandees.

John Gray said...

Hi Mike

Not sure what you mean by "grandees"? The Party is a fairly broad church and this has been a classic argument for generations?

Mike Law said...

Grandees... Party leadership and influential members.

"this has been a classic argument for generations" - I don't know what Party you are referring to John, but my recollection of the Labour Party is that its economic philosophy was historically that of public ownership. Blair's dropping of Clause IV put an end to all that.

Anonymous said...

The people with the top 1 per cent of incomes pay very nearly a quarter of all the income tax, as the Governments own data shows.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-4.pdf
7% of the population earn over £50,000 a year and contribute over 47% of the income tax for the whole tax paying population. Also, less than 1% of the population earn over £150,000 a year and these people contribute over 22% of total income tax. The scary conclusion I come to is that a small wealthy contingent of people leaving the country can have a large impact on the overall income tax take and thus everybody else would need to pay significantly more to cover the loss. I am one of the "rich". I spend all my earnings on tax, my largest single expense, housing and schooling, and save little. With the coming tax rises however, I have finally had enough. I'm going abroad to live in March. The political debate in this country just seems to be about how much the population want to stuff me, and other people like me. I hear from indignant people who pay next to nothing into the system, how unfair it is that people like me don't pay for everything. It is not the same elsewhere, indeed quite the opposite. I am not alone either. How many more after the next election? I do like Britain, I was born here. But I don't love anywhere enough to sacrifice my earning life for. Incidentally, I'm not a banker.

John Gray said...

Hi Mike

I would suggest that you read some Labour Party history. Even the ILP didn't argue for nationisation of everything.

The relative size of the "mixed" economy and progressive taxation has been an internal argument since get go.

Maybe public ownership is now seen as a means rather than an end.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Hi anon

I am sorry but I really cannot see any point to your argument?

Like with Mike I would suggest you read something other than the Daily Mail and get out a little more and talk to ordinary working people. They will not bite.

Anyway I say “Best of British” with your new life! With attitudes like that you will not be missed.

Not that I believe anything you claim to be.

(very childish anon Tory rot and nonsense.)

Mike Law said...

As ever John, the quality of your arguments matches you IQ.

Where did I state that the Party wanted to nationalise everything?

I don’t buy the Mail, but I do take a look at its web site from time to time.

And as for talking to ordinary working people, what do you think I am? It’s the nature of my job that I talk to good number of working people (and the unemployed – yes, they’re still around in your New Labour utopia, or do their views not count?).

Did you take the time to look at the PDF file Anon directed you to?

I did, and I cannot fault his analysis regarding the ratios of taxes paid by those with an income of £50k and greater.

But I keep forgetting - you don’t believe it, so it must be wrong. And you don’t like Trots!

Anonymous said...

Be good of you could address the facts - you didn't manage to address a single one of the facts that I posted? can't argue with facts John.

John Gray said...

Hi Mike
You have gone off again at a tangent. I am responding to Tory rich boy not you? You remind me of those folk who complain that newspapers keep making secret references to them!

Or was it you who wrote this nonsense about Tory rich boy “leaving the country”?

Hi Anon
Because I see nothing, repeat nothing wrong with rich people paying taxes. Your PDF is a good news story as far as I am concerned. BTW - Don’t be fooled by the supposed “incomes” of the self employed at this level that rip the state off left, right and centre. That is why we shamefully get millionaires who pay less of their income in tax than their office cleaners.

Life is better for all (including the rich) when they live in a fairer and more equitable society.

Mike Law said...

John,

I understand that you have trouble recollecting what comments you have made between the threads in different blogposts, but are you serious in that you cannot go back to a comment you made in this thread?

First, my question asking where did I state that the Labour Party wanted to nationalise everything was in response to your comment at 07:07.

As you referred to me in your response to Anon in the same comment, insinuating that I’m a “Mail” reader, I thought I’d put the record straight. This is what you wrote: “Like with Mike I would suggest you read something other than the Daily Mail and get out a little more and talk to ordinary working people. They will not bite.” As I’m included in that statement I would think it’s only logical that suggestion you put to Anon is also meant for me.

I also asked what I thought was a legitimate question – did you read the data Anon highlighted?

I don’t make Anon comments on your blog; what would be the point? However, if I do, I’ll give the heads-up now and let you know what pseudonym I’ll be using – I think I quite like “Tobe Honest”, or Maybe “Not Tory Toff Basher”.

Just as a point of curiosity, what would be my motive for pretending to emigrate?

In any event, taxation is a necessary evil in the society we live. However, it how the revenue from those taxes are spent that is the key issue.

Tell me, have you been selected yet?

Mike Law said...

Regarding afairer and more equitable society.

John Gray said...

Hi Mike
Read your own threads IMO you might have not meant it but is it is pretty clear to me. I also referred to you needing to learn more Labour history. You admit to writing anon letters to newspapers and don’t admit to also writing anon letters attacking yourself. But of course I will accept your undertaking that rich Tory boy is not you.

The total amount of revenue is just as important as how it is spent.

Selection process not finished yet. Will post then.

2nd comment. Proves my point. Must be more radical in next government. Including more taxes on those more able to afford it. Fundamentally it is all down to money. Societies that are fairer are better for all. Rich and poor.

Anonymous said...

The point is that this society is no longer fair and the facts I posted clearly show that. Sure a few greedy bankers got rich (but this labour administration supported the process - after all they knighted a lot of them and set the FSA up -at an absolute minimum they have been asleep on the job). The people who rely heaviest on state aid pay, the least tax but are the most vociferous in shouting about even more being funded.

Mike Law said...

What? What is pretty clear to you?

Which labour History are talking about? Labour History as it actually is, or the John Gray version?

Yes, I have admitted writing Anon letters in the Recorder; I have never written any Anon letters attacking myself – I don’t understand what the point of that would be. However, as you are omnipresent, maybe you could tell me when I wrote this letter and what it was about. As I have stated previously, there would be little point in submitting Anon comments on your blog as you do print most of them (except when you run out steam with your “because I say so” arguments); probably your only redeeming feature.

Revenue is important… how it is spent is more important.

That’s interesting, I’ve been told of a good number of wards where the selections are done and dusted. Am I being lied to?

On taxes (and more of them), again it comes down to what the money is spent on. “Societies that are fairer and better for all” – what does that mean? What are your definitions of a fairer and better society? Labour have been in government for 12 years, where has the Labour government gone wrong?

John Gray said...

Hi Anon
Life is unfair and never has been fair to the majority of people in this country. It is not just the case of a few rotten apples it is the neo-liberal free market economic system that nearly brought us completely to our knees. Thankfully active intervention by the state saved us.
“The people” (you mean the elderly, disabled and families with young children). Or rather the vulnerable in our society relay on state aid – and quite right too. In fact they don’t shout enough. It is a shame that you don’t give a damn about anyone but you.
Hi Mike
John Gray version of course!
How do you know I only publish “most” anon comments...!
So if the rich only paid 5% of their income then that is fine?
Which part of ...“Selection process not finished yet. Will post then”... don’t you understand?
Well...what about a truly progressive and redistributive tax system, more rights and responsibilities for trade unions for fairer industrial democracy, PR, real governance of pension and assurance funds, “not for profit” and accountable public services. I could go on....

Labour has done loads right during the last 12 years but needs to do more. Much more.

Anonymous said...

John.
I think you missed the point so i will repeat it and see if you get it second time around.... the "rich" - or to put it another way anyone earnng over 50K (7% of the population - including many union leaders) are already paying 47% of the income tax. Why do you always like to make out that somehow they are getting away with something? they are really playing their part. The vulnerable pay very little and get a huge amount. What do you mean by truly progressive - maybe the 7% should pay 100% of the tax - that should promote social harmony - and meet labour's support for aspiration.

Mike Law said...

I wasn't very clear in my last comment, what I meant was, you post most of the comments I submit, so why post as anon?

You like to go off on one about others being rude, but look at the way you respond. "Which part of ...“Selection process not finished yet. Will post then”... don’t you understand?" I was asking if I had been lied to; a simple yes or no would do.

A zero tax rate for those on less than £18k, 5% tax rate for those earning less than £30k, 25% for those on £30K to £100k 40% on incomes above £100K seems fair to me. As I state, it's not the amount collected, it's how it's spent.

Like the list of Labour achievements (PR?). Neatly counterbalances increase in detention without charge; ID cards; piss poor and expensive IT systems; elected mayors with no scrutiny; two protracted wars; tuition fees; not overturning Conservative anti-union legislation. I could go on...

Labour has done a lot wrong during the last 12 years, but will not get the chance to carry on after May.

John Gray said...

Hi Anon

You are talking now about 4x national minimum wage which impacts on far more than 7% of population. Rich people (especially the very rich) simply do not pay enough tax; do not pay their fair share to society. Good luck to you if you make money but don’t do it by exploiting people. You haven’t I’m afraid a clue about the vulnerable “paying a little and get a huge amount”. Have you ever worked in a large inner city housing estate and seen how people live with such little? Don’t be silly about all this - fairer taxation is in everyone’s favour.

BTW – you forget about unfair non progressive taxes such as VAT which the vulnerable pay though the nose and subsidise the wealthy.

Hi Mike

No, you were not very clear (neither mind I am - on occasions) but recently I have decided that I have not a clue about your thought processes. I will continue to speculate as seems appropriate at the time.

Well, talk about being rude. I made what I thought to be a perfectly reasonable answer which you did not read properly and you responded with one of your rants about people “lying” to you.

If not enough money is raised by taxation then we can’t do things. QED.

It was a wish list not a list of achievements!

Looking forward Victory in May (or March or June) and a 4th term.

Anonymous said...

It's not about class. I'm working class and I know lots of other people like me but we are now called middle class. NL hates us because we are no longer their clients. The reason is that despite our class we are not feckless and we are intelligent enough to have used whatever opportunities came our way to improve our lifestyles and that of our families. There are people who fall on hard times through no fault of their own but the state rightly assists them and they have no need to remain trapped in poverty indefinitely. For most people, to remain 'poor' in what is still one of the richest countries in the world you have to be perversely feckless or stupid and the ability of very poor people from other countries to come here and make a good life for themselves proves it.

Mike Law said...

You don’t speculate, you fabricate.

It is a little difficult for me to assist you in understanding my thought processes; if we were face-to-face I could speak s-l-o-w-l-y, but typing slowly will do little to help anything sink in.

I didn’t rant about people lying to me, you seem obsessed with your fiction that I’m aggressive and I rant – to the point of… aggressively ranting about it!

I had a brief chat with a sitting councillor who I bumped into in Green Street. He told me about a number of Labour members who have been selected for certain wards (your name came up – he told me you had been selected for a Forest Gate ward although he didn’t know which one – if this is true, congratulations). All I wanted to know is if the councillor was having me on.

But it is the things done that are important.

A wish list? I thought I didn’t recognise any as achievements (but I gave you the benefit of the doubt until I checked – although I had to question PR). Just about sums up 12 years of New Labour. Well, if wishes were horses…

John Gray said...

Hi Anon

So most people “choose” to remain in poverty? They are all unintelligent “feckless or stupid”? So back to the workhouse eh?

You have no idea whatsoever what drives poverty and deprivation nor the despair of those who endure it.

For obvious reasons they use to call the Tories the “Stupid Party” – frankly I think you belong not to the working or middle but the intolerant and bigoted “Stupid class” as well.

Hi Mike
Is it at possible for you to put forward any argument at all without being abusive? Don’t you actually read what you write? Slow or fast? I suppose not?

At least I normally start off nice.

Not 100% correct but thank you. I will post when the process in over.
Lots of achievements by Labour.

More to come nationally and locally.

You have got to have dreams!

Comments closed. Repeat Comments closed so move along now. There will be more fun ahead.